I thought it was supposed to be an FF. But no seat back, so not. On the wrong site then.

Feet First two wheeler;- "A powered two wheeler where the seat base is less than 20" above the ground at ride hieght and there is a seat back capable of fully supporting the rider" Got that Paul?

Anyone can dispute* the relevence of the seat back part of the basic FF definition, it's the best way demonstrate ignorance of the most important single component of an FF two wheeler.

*But not with me OK? I've been there. done that. Annoy someone else.

It was clear from the Oxford Mail photo of Bob and his idiosyncratic machine that it had no seat back. But that did not stop you making all sorts of interesting observations about it over several days. I'd say a seat back is essential in an FF for comfort over any sort of distance, but I dispute that it's essential for maximum control when 'scratching' and I think my photo of Alex Gurney 'going for it' close to maximum lean in an Alligator is a good illustration of the point: http://bikeweb.com/node/2408
Obviously, the distance of the handlebars from the rider's seat has a lot of bearing on this too!
PNB

Bob described his vehicle as an FF and I focussed entirely on the front suspension that I thought was the point of the excercise. I don't take the Oxford Mail and this is the first photo I've seen of the whole vehicle that makes it clear that it isn't. I have no idea whether he has encountered the basic definition of an FF previously or not.

But you have Paul, - and also claim to have ridden more different FFs than anyone else on earth, so the fact that you haven't detected the improvement in control authority and security provided by a seatback, even the vestigal one fitted to Alligators, disqualifies you from any further consideration as an FF expert.

As I said in the post above you have efficiently demonstrated your ignorance of the most important single component of an FF. Now, please, go and annoy someone else.

I must be stupid. I thought you just had to go along feet first to qualify as feet first! That's what some Royce Creasey bloke seems to be saying here in Wikipedia:

"A Feet First (FF) Motorcycle is a class of motorcycle design that seeks to look at the two-wheeled concept afresh, and create a new form of practical personal transport. The name "feet first" (also referred to as "feet forward") was first used by Royce Creasey and refers to the rider's seating position, with feet ahead in a position (like a car), rather than below and astride, as with conventional bikes. " - It doesn't mention seat backs there.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnrTeoVMhHXkm16mNnPHugn70wX3

Nice try Bob, but it looks to me as if the seat base is now above 20 inches. If it is, then you'll find that somewhere in the small print on this site that it is now disqualified from being an FF for a different reason. Perhaps the vehicles should be decribed as SSBALSBL's (Supportive seat back and low seat base location) rather than FF to prevent confusion.

But then we'd have been denied the chance to see what you've built, which is of course closer to an 'FF' than a bike. Take the planks off the seat base and you'll be there.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnrTeoVMhHXkm1-BsbK6Tnp44CAk

:)

Much better.

I looked up "feet" in the dictionary and it said ".. a separate organ at the terminal part of the leg ". Then I looked up "first" and it said "being before all others with respect to time..". So I looked up "feet first" and it said "with the feet preceding the rest of the body". Regarding "Feet First" (with capital initials) with respect to a motorcycle, see above. Still nothing about a back rest.

Who makes up your extra rules and why?

From reading the site I think Royce Creasey came up with the extra rules (along with other) to define FF as a particular type of powered two wheeler that has specific characteristics. Think moped, scooter, chopper, naked etc. Unfortunately the Feet Forward term is descriptive as well as defintive. It would have been better if this wasn't the case as it naturally leads to confusion, but it's probably too late to change things now.

OK, I'll make a real back rest. But was Royce trying to include me out?