Electric FF motorcycles for sale

Hi everybody I wasn't going to break cover before i had more to show, but with all the current activity on site re looking for an FF, on yahoo, and electric motorcycles on bikeweb, here goes.

Basically we are a small subcontract machine shop, Dale Engineering based in Widnes, and i am currently developing a basic electric FF and a totally enclosed electric hybrid FF which i hope to put into production. I had applied several times to the niche vehicle network for development funds, but none has been made available, and to avoid further delay, the project will now be constructed with what we have, a 50 year old forklift truck pump motor, and lead acid battery’s not ideal, but it will at least allow us to make a start, one step at a time. To that end I recently bought the bare bones of a Phasar and i am using this as my test mule, and hope to have a driver by early next year, with the body following on later.

If i had any sense at all I would be contacting our Kiwi friend Roger Dunkley, with his Aerobike project, who i think has done a really tremendous job, and a mountain of work, so sorry to see him loose interest, because it wasn't his lack of skill, and anybody seriously looking to buy an FF should consider his project, even including the cost of the transport to the uk, he really has completed a lovely project. Unfortunately i don’t want to just build up somebody else’s project, i have to tread my own path, and although i love the sound and smell, of an engine, and my own familiarity and experience with many engine types, electric drive is the future, and also the perfect drive train for an FF.

In an attempt to bring the project on further faster, anybody wanting an electric FF i am prepared to build and sell one of each type at cost, regards performance and distance, I estimate a 120mph and 150 mile range vehicle can be produced for approx £14,000, (i would hope to sell for £28,000) and a totally enclosed variant 150 mph and virtually unlimited mileage, circa £29,000 (selling for £43,000) so a considerable saving.

All i want is a £1000 deposit, for either one of each type, to get the ball rolling, and further stage payments as work progresses, you can also withdraw from the purchase any time you like, subject to just a £500 admin charge, i won’t require any funds until the Phasar is up and running, for your evaluation, but i will require them at the beginning of the project, not 12 months later. I would like to keep a log, and keep people informed of my progress, but it can occupy a disproportionate amount of time, with endless debate why this motor, or that battery pack size, seat height, the price, hybrid, etc etc, the list is endless. Basically i am making something i want, my way, and if i get it right, you will too, and as soon as she is up and running, i will give you an update.

If you cant wait that long, and want to be first on the list, you can contact me at da420354@gmail.com
Yours Dave Arthur

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Hi David,

I understand that Rohit Jaggi has bought the Aerobike and is bringing it to England, chiefly because it's too good to lose. Maybe you should talk to him, he's not an engineer himself. I suspect the shape needs modification for aerodynamic stability but that's all do-able.

Good luck with your EFF project. Any connection with the Monotracer/E-tracer business - or has that gone completely now?

Aerobike + more suitable ready-made electric drive trains

I can confirm that Rohit Jaggi has indeed bought the Aerobike and has already got it safely tucked up in his garage in North London.

Dave, surely if you had any sense, you wouldn't start with "a 50 year old forklift truck pump motor, and lead acid battery’s" (sic.)
Any sensible person would start with the drive train and lithium-ion batteries of a 21st century electric vehicle. There are several electric motorcycle drive trains to choose from:
Two from Zero and one more expensive but also more powerful and water-cooled one from Energica. And of course the sophisticated drive train in the BMW C evolution which is derived from the BMW i3 car.
There are also quite a few cheap Brammo Empulses knocking about which had enough power to crack the ton in the standard motorised bicycle back in 2014.
There are also several people I know buying up the lithium batteries from crash-damaged electric cars with a view to putting them in motorcycles and scooters converted to electric power.
Hell, you could even buy an Anglo-Indian Agni drive train, and get some very useful advice, from the legendary Cedric Lynch – the first man to build his own fully enclosed electric FF from scratch back in the 20th century, and in constant use on the road ever since!
And of course you do have competition from the born-again Peraves company in Brno, which is going to use a German electric motor.

Very true

Gotta agree with Paul there - although, as a rule I avoid giving advice unless it's asked for. However I'll break that rule to suggest that using an ancient Phasar chassis is, apart from 'desecrating our (FF) engineering heritage' also a bit retro. One thing that's very apparant already in E-two wheelers, is that the battery box is big and strong enough to act as the chassis. It's worth a look at BMW's 'state of the art' E-scooter. It's the wrong shape, it's got silly bodywork, no seat to speak of and ridiculous front suspension. But it's a damm fine piece of vehicle engineering in packaging terms. I'd suggest showing them how to do it properely.

'Course, using a Phasar gets you a Tait HCS, an essential feature of a modern FF but it won't help you with a production front end, neither Malcolm or Bob are available. The Voyager HCS is though, subject to some investment in the lost axle die. A complete MK11 unit was made earlier this year. I think there are also one or two units from the 2001 batch still available.

Pauls also put his finger on what should be a popular route to a modern E-FF, using existing E-motorcycle power trains. The major advantage here is that you get a power management system that should be appropriate for a two wheeler. Power management is the biggest issue in building E-two wheelers beyond the bicycle power limits.

Paul, any current news from Peraves?

Comfort and safety

While I admire the idea behind FFs I really can't see mass market penetration for something that requires people to don protective gear and be apart from the already minority tribe of bikers. What people want is something with the traffic busting qualities of a bike (FF or otherwise) and the comfort and safety of a car.

This really points to a narrow three or four wheeled vehicle such as a Toyota iRoad. They may not be as fast as a bike but this is something that the market will compromise on for the above mentioned benefits.


Being able to ride an FF wearing only 'clothing appropriate to the weather' has been a design objective for some decades, and has been routinely met. Fitting weather and crash protection to the vehicle, rather than the rider, is the norm. Crash helments are mandatory and hardly a major disincentive.

Total enclosure is possible, with smaller, cheaper, vehicles than Peraves mighty Monotracer, but the USP of FFs is that they provide these qualities with less machinery, cost, weieght, complexity, than any other vehicle. Efficiency is the key driver. Simplicate. Add lightness.

Look to the explosion in lightweight scooters, for cargo, urban mobility, to see people making compromises far beyond anything asked by an FF. Selling FFs is not the problem. Persuading motorcycle manufacturers to make a vehicle that is less profitable than their current two wheeled toys and will take market share off the small cars they live on, is. You can sell anything, it's all about the money you make by doing so. Corporates are run by accountants, not engineers. Market development trumps product development every time.

Hi Royce hi Paul hi

Hi Royce hi Paul hi everybody
As I said in an earlier post I was a bit reluctant to submit my project to soon, as its so easy to assume the wrong thing, but I don’t really have the time or inclination, (or capacity) to explain better, but when I have 2 of the most prestigious contributors and innovators of this site and FF in general, both (ganging up on me) I better explain further. First off Paul, you as one of the most experienced people to ride fly drive crash so many different FFs, maybe we should call you Winkle Brown, you are the man, we only met briefly at Mallory, and I was sorry to see you go so soon, was looking forward to talking to you. Which brings me to my next point, as soon as I have something you can ride, I would really appreciate your input, in my project, as I have nothing to compare, with my own existing motorcycles, good or bad, I am sure it will be very helpful and constructive. But regards your opinion, re the way I am going about this project, I totally disagree, you are obviously very good at stringing a sentence together, and make for enjoyable reading, but I haven’t seen anything you have actually built yourself? Ime sure your comfortable working ect on the above, but I don’t think your passionate about producing anything, you just enjoy writing and riding them. And that’s the difference, I cant string a sentence together properly, but I can Mig and Tig and everything I do revolves around cutting lumps of metal, and producing parts. This is why I can really value your opinion on the one hand, but happy to ignore you in the direction I am taking. Royce, I am sick to death of reading your FF intro and technical specs, but every time I do, I usually pick up another snippet, I missed out earlier, or is it at 60+ am I forgetting it faster than I can cram it in, even so if I left my FF outside your house leaning against the wall, you would instinctively rummage around in your pockets for the key, as you will think it is yours, it will have you all over it, an excellent testament to your FF work, but you too have indeed broke your own good rule, even though I really value you’re your opinion, and still curse about not going down to see you and the Voyager when you started up, and I hope now ive explained more, you can see, it’s the right way, and a good start, without breaking the bank, and as far as that goes, normally I dont spend more than £500 on my projects, but ive just spent £5000 plus on 2 new containers just to house the project in.
First of all Royce no Phasars will be harmed during my FF design, a few brackets and lugs, easy to put it back, but what was left in the first place, it was really scrap. Remember, I said a test mule, nothing more, the vehicle is only getting an electric motor, and is the quickest easiest way to get something on the road. Paul Royce (motors) you say I am wrong to use a 50 year old flt pump motor or similar, but they were so well built, they can take a lot more volts and amps, than originally designed, and can really give a kick, you say there are far better products out there, which is true, but several potential suppliers were over £4000 for the same output as my flt motor, and a further £4000 for the controller to suit. Speaking of which I had also bought earlier a crash damaged fully sealed 3phase motor and controller combination, an Ashwood transit assist unit approx. 20hp, lovely, but because it had been set for a particular use, the controller requires resetting, with a software dongle combination, which is more expensive than the controller itself, always a way round it but, money for old rope I call it, so it has been put to one side for the moment. You also point out alternatives, you assume I am ignorant off, ie Agni motor which is now Saietta and Cedric Lynch, I was actually down at their site in July, and spent a really informative afternoon, and completed a tour of the factory, conducted by no less than the man himself, including a visit into his own personal workshops, very impressed, thankyou Cedric. You criticise my battery selection, but what you don’t know is I have bid on several packs, but been outbid to date, but now, ive not just acquired a set of Lifepo4 battery’s but an electric Ford Transit Edison van to go with them, which has now become the works van. 4 cheap lead acid, will enable me to still ride 10 / 20 miles, be a similar in weight to a 10 kw lifepo4 pack and also enable me to adjust the CG back and forth up down ect at will, using just a piece of 3”x2” timber, and a strip of 1/8” flat bar. Royce how long did it take you to move your engine forward after moving the radiator? And if it had been worse? how long before you would have moved it back, until I decide on the motor power, and type, I cant set the voltage 96v 400v ect , as all the cells are different sizes and capacity to suit , which will again impact on chassis design. Regards using somebody else’s electric motorcycle, all I would be doing is paying over the odds for something that is still a compromise, though I did make a tentative offer on one of the Saietta’s whilst at the factory, as its all packaged so well. I agree the chassis can form the battery box, and in that regard I have been studying weeds, always good to take a leaf out of mother nature, basically in one growing season some weeds grow at such a rate, the structure has evolved to be one of the strongest known to man, but the main body is composed primarily of interlinked tubes, ime sure I can get something to fit into them. On a completely different note I am so happy to hear Rogers FF hasn’t been abandoned, and in that regard if the new owner is considering a different landing gear layout, ive built a simple trailing arm setup for my cabin version, from a £60 electric winch, which I can forward pics ect if he is interested, to enable a copy to be made down at his neck of the woods, as I feel this system is a bit more forgiving, on our pockmarked roads, and after discussions with Andy and Colin and their Eco experiences, I only really asked about the bits they didn’t like, and trailing arms may allow a modicum of lean, with the wheels down when negotiating roundabouts ect. I hope now ive explained a bit more you can see why I am going down this route initially, but I am building up a bit of momentum, and even bought the other FF hub recently advertised on this site, as a spare, production versions will be Hossack so I have a lot to do, which was why I submitted so little info, as this simple explanation has taken me 4 hours + but I like to say the proof of the pudding is in the eating, just hope ive not bitten off more than I can chew. Finally Royce Paul thanks for your concern and advice, to try to steer me clear of the icebergs, but my bunkers are on fire, and I am beyond hope, but am really looking forward to it and hopefully I will have something to show in the next few months. yours Dave Arthur

Good shout

You're sick of reading technical articles on Bikeweb... How do you think I feel? I can see you've been doing extensive homework on this, including the difficulty of programming power management systems.

Don't mind me talking about our 'FF heritage', I'm thoroughly familiar with Malcolms approach to vehicle building, it's just a slightly sensitive subject at the moment because one of the Voyagers has fallen into the wrong hands and been vandalised but I'm generally pretty relaxed about modifying previous designs.

I think you're taking on a major task, looking to beat the majors at E-power performance/sophistication And take FF design further down the road. But how else do we progress? I usually try and put other people's tech together in new ways - connective tissue is the easiest - but I haven't got very far this millenium!

You have to be on fire to push this size snowball uphill and I hope you make it. Any help I can give etc...

If you want to be really nauseated I'm currently proofing a 25,000 word piece on FF design, moving on from the Bikeweb stuff. I'll send you a draft if you like, that'll stop you working!

I'm a rider, not a builder! But I've ridden a lot of FFs & ePTWs

Dave, thanks for your kind words. I’m sorry we didn’t get to talk longer at Mallory too. I’ve never considered myself any sort of FF builder; I’ve always seen my role as giving unbiased feedback to people. FWIW I believe I’ve ridden a greater variety of FFs than anyone else on the planet, and the same is probably true for electric PTWs too. And, just as important, I continue to ride conventional motorcycles and maxiscooters, old and new, including as many electric bikes and scooters as I can get my hands on.

I salute your attempt to start from first principles, but I also fear that you may be ‘reinventing the wheel’ with regard to electric powertrains, when your time, energy and money might be better spent taking the powertrain of an existing electric motorcycle and building a more sensible FF around it.

In any case, I urge you to ride as many electric scooters and motorcycles as you can. It’s important to feel at first hand the difference between a cheap’n’cheerful Chinese electric scooter and a BMW C evolution - it's like the difference between a BSA Bantam and a Honda Gold Wing 1800. And I mean in the smoothness of the throttle response as much as the difference in torque and power.

Another important consideration: traction control; I am dismayed that 3 years after they first fitted ABS to their entire range, Zero have still not fitted traction control to any of their machines. Yet I was nearly high-sided the first time I rode a Zero, way back in 2009, on hot dry tarmac, and it happened again in 2015, by which time their machines had doubled their power and range, and furthermore they still overheated if their performance was properly exploited.

In contrast, BMW built their C evolution with traction control, water cooling and reverse, right out of the box, yet it took them 3 years to come up with an optional charging cable that you could plug into a standard electric car chargepoint, despite developing the electric cars side by side with the scooter! And they also mysteriously abandoned the eminently sensible notion of building some rider protection into the machine despite building their first prototypes as electric C1s. I could go on!

I just fear that you’re trying to be Karl Benz, or the Wright Brothers – or even Sir Alliot Verdon-Roe – instead of starting with a second hand Mercedes or Cessna or Zero! Remember, even Malcolm Newell and Arnold Wagner used existing off-the-shelf power trains that came complete with everything required to make them work satisfactorily in a road vehicle.

In any case, I will be delighted to have a ride in or on whatever you manage to build! Good Luck! PNB


It's true that you've ridden many different FFs Paul. And I know from my own limited time writing road tests for Classic Bike how much knowledge can be gained by so doing. Maybe you should think about producing some analysis of all these different machines for the benefit of people trying to build them?

When you think about it, it takes years to complete the process of defining a concept, designing and building the vehicle that embodies it and then developing that vehicle to something like the original concept. Time spent that can't be used to gain futher knowledge for the next concept. It's not even easy to keep up with basic automotive developments while actually building something. It might be three or four years before a result can be compared with a requirement and that's as true for BMW as it is for me in my little shed.

Some objective comparison between similar basic types, open cockpit, enclosure, front suspension types, aerodynamic stability, all the stuff that you'd put in a normal road test (Normal as in a report for designers, not MCN!), would be hugely usefull for anyone involved in FF design. You occasionally slip out pieces of really useful information "Zero still not fitted traction control" (Really?! Shit!) maybe you could do a lot more of that, in a more organised fashion?

You don't need to know anything about engineering or design (See MCN), just be able to describe what something is, what's it's supposed to do, and how well it does it. "Crude, heavy and horribly pedestrian" is better than nothing but you can probably do better than that! For instance, several people are looking at existing E-bikes/scoots as potential powertrain donors. Are any of them any good? power management? range/performance? Who knows?

Blez FF Musings in Print? + Existing E-bikes & Scoots

Royce, I've been thinking of writing an FF book for decades, ever since I contributed a chapter on FFs to a Tony Middlehurst tome, back in the 1980s, reinforced by doing the Top Gear TV thang in 1988 and the Le Roux speech for the VDI conference in 1991. It's amazing how many 'ancient FFs' have been unearthed since then, probably at least as many as all the freshly-built new ones in the last 25 years! Your idea of limiting myself to writing about my personal experience of all the FFs I've ridden is certainly less daunting, especially since I wrote so much at the time. So lots of material could be rehashed, but perhaps with an appendix 'with the benefit of hindsight and more experience' for each.....and maybe some sort of overall conclusions at the end.
And of course it's never been easier to self-publish....

Of the conventional ePTWs that I've ridden, I'd say the BMW C evolution is the most sophisticated; it's such a shame that BMW built it as such a tall lump of a thing.
Zero's 4-brick platform is also disappointingly tall, which is why I'd be tempted to start with the much lighter 2-brick set-up of the Zero FX platform if I were building a ground-up FF right now, especially as the FXs are also Zero's cheapest models and come with quick-release batteries as standard. That was what Craig Vetter was planning to do at the time of his accident a couple of years ago. I very much hope he'll still be able to do it, eventually.
Of course, the CRP Energicas have the most power and come with top quality cycle parts as standard too, but they are also the most expensive (apart from the Lightning, on both counts!). PNB


It think it's worth putting useful info on FFs down somewhere. I'm currently trying to proof out an updated compiliation of all the Bikeweb tech stuff, 25,000 words!

The thing is, is this stuff publishable outside Bikeweb? It's such a tiny esoteric market, I really can't see it being marketable generally. Also getting something like this to publishable quality, links, diagrams, pictures,, data charts, setting, is a job in it's own right and its hard to see how that could be paid for. On the other hand putting it up on bikeweb makes it quite easy to link up with stuff on the site and it is likely to be found by the people who can use it. So basically it's easiest to give it away. And most likely to be useful.

And if the people who spent the last thirty or so years learning about FFs don't put all their accumalated knowledge on record, it'll be lost and someone will have to do it all again. Bit inefficient...

I dunno what the best solution is, I'll probably put my stuff on bikeweb once I've proofed it and included the links. At least it'll be out of my head then!

The C-evo certainly looks good on paper, just have to get BMW to make the battery box the right shape - and unbolt that silly front end...